Red Hat Bugzilla – Full Text Bug Listing
|Summary:||Newer upstream RPM is available|
|Product:||[Fedora] Fedora||Reporter:||Robert Scheck <redhat-bugzilla>|
|Component:||rpm||Assignee:||Paul Nasrat <pnasrat>|
|Status:||CLOSED WONTFIX||QA Contact:|
|Version:||rawhide||CC:||andreas.bierfert, cweyl, dag, eric-bugs, fche, gajownik, gauret, herrold, jonathan.underwood, k.georgiou, lmacken, matthias, maurizio.antillon, mej, mgarski, musuruan, n0dalus+redhat, nman64, opensource, pmatilai, robert.scheck, roland.wolters, tibbs, vedran|
|Fixed In Version:||Doc Type:||Bug Fix|
|Doc Text:||Story Points:||---|
|Last Closed:||2006-12-18 13:18:58 EST||Type:||---|
|oVirt Team:||---||RHEL 7.3 requirements from Atomic Host:|
|Bug Depends On:|
Description Robert Scheck 2005-11-27 12:14:17 EST
Description of problem: RPM 4.4.3 is available but Rawhide wasn't updated, yet. I would like to see this, because 4.4.3 contains new features as well as bugfixes. Upgrade shouldn't hurt anybody, or does it? ;-) Upgrade to rpm 4.4.3 would solve at least the following Red Hat Bugzilla IDs: #101717, #113340, #114338, #116709, #117382, #120635, #125517, #134388, #140050, #140597, #146842, #147196, #155256, #159221, #159235, #164953, #165434, #172878 RPM 4.4.3 also provides perl-RPM2 (as rpm-perl-4.4.x) now. Version-Release number of selected component (if applicable): rpm-4.4.2-7 Expected results: Upgrade to 4.4.3 ;-)
Comment 2 Robert Scheck 2005-12-02 06:42:16 EST
Paul why are you backporting the stuff and fixes into rpm 4.4.2-10 instead of upgrading to rpm 4.4.3?
Comment 3 Robert Scheck 2006-01-06 10:45:23 EST
Ping...what's up? RPM 4.4.4 is already available... I know, that there were (are?) miscellaneous (internal?) discussions and plans round about rpm and it's future - but wasn't a main goal of Fedora Core to be always very close to upstream?! ;-) My expected result is anyway an upgrade to latest (currently 4.4.4) rpm version.
Comment 4 Jeff Johnson 2006-01-07 11:07:34 EST
NEEDINFO_ENG waiting for an answer.
Comment 5 Robert Scheck 2006-02-21 19:06:52 EST
Paul and Mike: WHY EXACTLY wasn't and isn't Fedora Core updated to rpm > 4.4.2? The onliest excuse for the moment is the stabilisation of FC5 (which is really the worst alibi I could think of), but will there be definitely an update to the latest rpm release after FC5 is ready - yes or no...please! And if "no", could you please explain me detailed (!) the real reason for this decision? And FAIK, Fedora Core is a community-based distribution... ;-)
Comment 6 Paul Nasrat 2006-04-04 09:15:27 EDT
*** Bug 187887 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 7 Robert Scheck 2006-04-17 17:19:21 EDT
Updating for 4.4.6 until 4.4.7 is already there and nothing happend *yawns*
Comment 8 David Lawrence 2006-04-18 16:33:09 EDT
NEEDINFO_ENG has been deprecated in favor of NEEDINFO or ASSIGNED. Changing status to ASSIGNED for ENG review.
Comment 9 Robert Scheck 2006-05-21 09:19:55 EDT
Fedora Core 6 really should match with the latest upstream RPM release. There are many new useful features and enhancements, for example checking whether the parent directory is packaged. At this point, Fedora Core is really a mess and insane packaged. RPM %changelogs are internally converted to UTF-8 and can be trunicated to e.g. a year ago while building the rpm which reduces rpm header size. Another thing is, that libtool, pkgconfig, java and scriptlet requirements (and also providings) can be automatically extracted. RPM also carries a run-time probe dependency like Requires: getconf(GNU_LIBPTHREAD_VERSION) = NPTL so that can be expressed that Berkeley DB within rpm requires (!) a functional +NPTL system, no ifs, no ands, no buts (adapted from a jbj announcement). Nevertheless, there should be more communication between Red Hat and upstream concerning the SELinux support in rpm (see bug #182998). Dlopen()ed stuff could be a well solution for this making everybody happy? RPM is since 4.4.5 also able to handle files up to 4 GB in packages and later on, rollback support got also in. But hey, I don't want to copy the whole rpm changelog here into. An upgrade definitely should be an effort for both - users and developers... ;-)
Comment 10 Jonathan Underwood 2006-06-06 10:05:46 EDT
Hm. Not very polite of the maintainer to not respond.
Comment 11 Robert Scheck 2006-06-08 14:02:55 EDT
Jonathan, I completely agree with you. Some days ago, I started in #fedora-devel something like a discussion (some would call it flamewar). The result of it is, that "we as in the part of Red Hat that is focused on new technology" [...] "may _not_ update to upstream RPM. They're doing some really cracked out things that we're not comfortable consuming" (jkeating). Current end of the story is, that the RPM tags enhances, suggests etc. seem to be the only real problem. But "thats the only one that has come to my attention. Granted, it is a pretty big one. Also, I haven't even LOOKED at it, thats jsut the one that was brought to my attention" (jkeating). And as far as I got the information, "--disable-crap" has to be implemented by upstream and nobody at Red Hat seems to be willing to hack out what is unwanted at downstream (because users could complain, Red Hat RPM is missing something upstream RPM has). But "hack in"s (oppositte of "hack out") at downstram seem to be toleranted and accepted when looking to bug #182998 for example. Are "hack outs" and "hack ins" not on the same downstream level? Crazy world... At least, I'll keep open and update this bug report until the hell freezes or Red Hat updates Fedora Core to latest RPM upstream - even if we get something similar like in bug #119185 ;-)
Comment 12 Michael Jennings (KainX) 2006-06-08 19:34:49 EDT
Any or all of the following things should concern you greatly: - The people deciding not to upgrade RPM have not even looked at the upstream version or its features. - jkeating is not even an RPM developer. He is a packager. - The Enhances/Suggests/etc. tags are not required; they are entirely optional and need not be used in any packages if they are not desired. Not using upstream RPM because of their presence is no less silly than not using RPM at all because it doesn't remove *.la files, or not using the Linux kernel because it can load non-GPL modules. This is probably a smokescreen hiding the true *political* reasons they have for not using upstream RPM. - Fedora packagers have made numerous and rampant policy decisions regarding "proper" packaging. The aforementioned tags are completely unused by RPM itself, so omitting them would simply be a policy decision. So why all the fuss? Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
Comment 13 Matthias Saou 2006-06-27 06:37:33 EDT
OK, then I'll just ask : Paul, what are the reasons for sticking with an old version of rpm with currently 27 patches applied, instead of updating to the latest version? I for instance would really like to see the automatic dependency generation through pkgconfig files in Fedora, that's really neat and could simplify packaging in the same way automatic dependency generation of shared libraries did!
Comment 14 Jeff Johnson 2006-07-07 17:20:16 EDT
I'm tired enough of my work being backported without even attribution that I'm gonna slam this bug WONTFIX. I'm seriously contemplating licensing my rpm development to ensure that FC will never ever be able to upgrade rpm. Go honk yer vendors fer fixes.
Comment 15 Robert Scheck 2006-07-07 18:50:59 EDT
Reopening, because this is a Fedora bug report, not RPM upstream related. And I definitely want to have a response by Red Hat, because Red Hat folks currently refuses this upgrade even when Fedora is a community driven distribution (and something like that is published everywhere). Not for nothing I marked this bug report as FC6Blocker...
Comment 16 Robert Scheck 2006-07-07 19:32:16 EDT
Oops...moved FC6Blocker from depends to block section to satisfy the dependency - thank you very much Chris :)
Comment 17 Michael Jennings (KainX) 2006-07-08 00:19:58 EDT
(In reply to comment #15) > Fedora is a community driven distribution You don't actually believe that, do you?
Comment 18 Robert Scheck 2006-07-08 08:57:29 EDT
Haha, can you give me any example to believe the public announcements? Core CVS is currently completely managed by Red Hat and all bigger decisions which belong to Core, too. Community is active in the "unimportant" parts, like e.g. Extras, Testing, Websites, etc. And IMHO this bug report proofes my point of view. Nevertheless this bug report is the right point to discuss this and my point of view about the whole stuff. Only my personal opinion. Finally said, the common used pleaded alibi of "no time to look into" isn't simply accepted by me. If you're *really* interested in something, you can find the time to look into it within your 8+ working hours a day. And wasn't Rawhide a place to break things, too? Upgrading from 4.4.2 to 4.4.5 was realized on my system by spending about an hour (except the Fedora RPM patch misery). Upgrading from 4.4.5 to 4.4.7-devel took another hour including some hacks to disable personally unwanted new but nice features - otherwise I had to fix the Fedora Core package misery ("orphan directories" and "dangling symlinks"). Expecting upgrade of RPM to latest stable upstream version for Fedora Core 6 and response by Red Hat folks, anyway.
Comment 19 Patrick Barnes 2006-07-09 15:39:00 EDT
The backported fixes have been used to maintain the version currently in Fedora while policy decisions are in the works for using some of the new features. Rather than dump in a new version that features some significant changes and letting the mayhem ensue, we want solid policies in place before introducing the changes to the Fedora pool. This issue is now under active discussion within the Fedora Advisory Board. Due to the significant nature of the changes, it is improbable that the new release will be added to Fedora Core 5 or introduced with the release of Fedora Core 6, though later inclusion cannot be completely ruled out at this time. We should have decisions made within FAB, FESCo and the Packaging Committee in the near future. Your patience is appreciated. It is also worth noting that this issue is being discussed within the community, and that Red Hat has not been solely responsible for the hold out. Please refrain from using this bug report as a venue for bad-mouthing the Fedora Project or Red Hat, especially without being completely informed. IANARHE
Comment 20 Jonathan Underwood 2006-07-10 11:54:42 EDT
I think the route of the frustration here lies in the lack of technical discussion on the matter. There are various bugs that in principle are solved by upgrading to the latest version of RPM, but perhaps the solutions offered in the upgrade are not viewed as the right technical solution. However, the point is that there hasn't been any detailed open discussions of the technical reasons for not upgrading, and I think this is the route of the frustration felt by people who have commented on this bug report. Could I make a suggestion that someone with the technical expertise required make a wiki page describing the technical pros and cons of upgrading to the upstream version of rpm. Regarding Comment #19, Patrick is right about bad mouthing red hat/fedora being the wrong thing to do. However, simply saying "this is up to FAB, it doesn't concern you" isn't an acceptable approach either. This is supposed to be a community led distribution (yes, I still believe that), and debate over issues such as this should be publically visible. To do otherwise is to show contempt for the community of people who are working hard to make Fedora better (looking at the CC list of this bug I see a number of Fedora Extras contributors, for example). I don't regard myself as having the technical knowledge regarding the internals of rpm to write down a list of reasons for and against following upstream. Hopefully someone reading this is.
Comment 21 Patrick Barnes 2006-07-10 13:59:59 EDT
The Fedora Advisory Board is a community group and is different from the Fedora Project Board. The Fedora Advisory Board consists of many of the Fedora Project's top contributors. The mailing list archives are open, and anyone is welcome to send a message to the list. The archives are available at: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/ I think establishing a wiki page is a good idea. If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll get it started as soon as I have the time, and I'll ask the assorted committees to use it as a central point for discussion.
Comment 22 Robert Scheck 2006-07-10 15:41:02 EDT
Thanks, Jonathan - added http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/rpm-devel right away after reading your comment. Just has to be updated by the guys providing the contra...sorry, I've got only pro ;-) Patrick, guess I can give back the lack of information to you - but regarding to RPM - now looks like we're in the same boat because "that features some significant changes and letting the mayhem ensue" sounds IMHO very similar like me about Fedora in comment #18 *smile* Waiting for useful and technical related discussion e.g. in the Wiki from guys used latest RPM or even know more than just vague thinks and never tried it out (I'm absolutely sorry, but that's my impresson when reading some replies at the list). The page is simply a draft and was created within a few minutes. So just feel free to improve and enhance it.
Comment 23 Jonathan Underwood 2006-07-10 20:39:42 EDT
Patrick - thanks for the clarification regarding the FAB. For other readers, a relevant FAB discussion is: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2006-July/msg00019.html [This is also linked to at the bottom of Robert's wiki page.] Robert - good work, this will help a lot I think, thanks very much for taking the time.
Comment 24 Jeff Johnson 2006-08-05 04:35:25 EDT
*** Bug 200115 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 25 Robert Scheck 2006-08-18 16:46:16 EDT
Okay folks, board meeting happend in July, but there wasn't IMHO a real result when reading: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2006-07-18 Today I read http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/06/08/17/177220.shtml: "First, we believe very strongly in working with various upstreams. The diff between any package that we ship in Fedora and the upstream version is as small as possible at any given time, and we are constantly submitting our patches and changes upstream for consideration." (Max Spevack). But did he ever look into the RPM package? Personally, I would say no, otherwise he maybe wouldn't have said this, wouldn't he? ;-) What's the real status about RPM from wraptastic.org for Fedora Core 7? There are several postings on the mailing lists but they sound to me like drinking coffee, talking about the weather and how good the cookies taste - sorry, but looks like nobody is interested in working, because just talking about is much more easier.
Comment 26 Jonathan Underwood 2006-08-19 07:14:16 EDT
Regarding Comment #25: I notice reading the fedora project board meeting that there was an action item regarding RPM: Need technical leadership around this. SethVidal is recommending PaulNasrat as a possible leader. Will speak to him and report back. I would like to see whoever becomes technical leader be significantly more communicative with the community than PaulNasrat is currently.
Comment 27 Dag Wieers 2006-09-01 21:02:00 EDT
Did anyone ever considered to talk with Jeff face-to-face to talk about the past, the present and the future, instead of ignoring him and RPM stubornly ? For some reason it feels like Red Hat and/or Fedora consider the mere mention of reconciliation treason. It's obvious that, for many months, if not years, relations have grown tense and insustainable and Jeff's sarcasm seems more like a result than a cause of this. It all seems like a bad episode of ill-communication. But the mere fact that Jeff is still maintaining RPM and fixing a piece of software, to me, is a clear sign that he still cares. And I doubt this cannot be fixed by putting everything on the table and discuss openly. Forking seems like one of the worst solutions IMO.
Comment 28 Robert Scheck 2006-09-02 06:42:44 EDT
+1 and s/IMHO// match just with my 2 Ct - hopefully Fedora accepts PayPal ;-) As far as I know and got told, Red Hat, Inc. is already trying to enforce its rights for RPM (especially for the name), headed by known leading Fedora Core developers employed at Red Hat, Inc. Why not removing RPM completely from Fedora and using only a standalone yum having rpmlibs competely written in Python included (that kind of yum should get the ability to build *.rpm files then, of course) to have only one huge ressource-wasting Python script and making most parts of the Fedora and/or Red Hat engineering including Seth very happy? The advantage is, that yum is already developed and only the rpmlibs would have been rewritten in Python (maybe the also existing Red Hat pyrpm could be used and merged in). </sarcasm></irony> Ha and just said when this or a similar day comes, I'll surely leave the whole Fedora Project to support maybe OpenSuSE, Mandriva, Debian or even Gentoo... :)
Comment 29 Eric Hopper 2006-09-02 17:06:01 EDT
They day RedHat seriously tries to use naming and trademark issues to force all versions of RPM that they don't distribute to be called something else is the day RedHat looses tons of my goodwill. I've already been considering OpenSuSE because I like reiserfs, and that would likely be the last straw.
Comment 30 Michael Jennings (KainX) 2006-09-05 14:57:21 EDT
RPM has been around since the early 90's, I believe. Suddenly deciding in late 2006 to enforce a trademark after 10+ years of general use is legally dubious at best. Of course, this would not be the first attempt by RedHat to use their lawyers to bully a community project....
Comment 31 Vedran Miletić 2006-09-08 11:03:10 EDT
Interetingly, openSUSE stopped at (heavily patched) 4.4.2 as well. I am wondering what are their reasons. However, Mandriva 2007 contains 4.4.6 (I think), and 4.4.7 is planned to be included. Anyone checked other distributions?
Comment 32 Robert Scheck 2006-10-17 08:20:47 EDT
Well, SuSE is IMHO a distribution always behind regarding RPM. They stood at rpm 3.0.x for years when 4.0.x or even 4.1.x was available, didn't they? Ah...latest and best bits of RPM were bundled as new release called 4.4.7 :) Now we've got 6-9 months for upgrading RPM until Fedora Core 7 is shipped. This looks just perfect to me, to heat up the discussion again and to bother people like Jesse or Seth as they're IMHO the hugest antagonists...
Comment 33 Andreas Bierfert 2006-11-02 16:51:38 EST
I would love to see the new rpm in fc7 as well...
Comment 34 Jeff Johnson 2006-12-03 13:41:03 EST
Segafualts and loss of data are likely due to removing an rpmdb environment without correcting other problems in the rpmdb. FYI: Most rpmdb "hangs" are now definitely fixed by purging stale read locks when opening a database environment in rpm-4.4.8-0.4. There's more to do, but I'm quite sure that a large class of problems with symptoms of "hang" are now corrected. Detecting damage by verifying when needed is also in rpm-4.4.8-0.4. Automatically correcting all possible damage is going to take more work, but a large class of problems is likely already fixed in rpm-4.4.8-0.4 as well. UPSTREAM
Comment 35 Patrick Barnes 2006-12-18 13:18:58 EST
A resolution has been decided: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2006-December/msg00003.html Obviously, there's a lot of work to do, but this bug report is no longer relevant. I'm closing this as WONTFIX. Anyone with a real interest in the future of RPM should visit the new upstream: http://rpm.org/ Thanks, everyone, for your input.