Hide Forgot
Description of problem: The bear cartoon shown for example at http://fedoraproject.org/download-splash and http://start.fedoraproject.org/ is a poor fit for the Fedora project. I understand that the intention may be to convey friendliness and ease of use, but instead it serves to infantilise its users and suggest that Fedora sees them as small children with its resemblance to the sort of illustration used in pre-school education text books. Actual results: The user feels condescended to and infantilised. Expected results: The user feels that they are downloading an easy-to-use and powerful operating system/getting involved in a friendly community.
This is a Panda, not a bear. When you write an article, design a GUI or a website, you have to first define your target. The Fedora Project targets a wide audience, from the student discovering the computer to the Kernel hacker. Our website is not targeting deep programmers, instead, we wish the user will feel interested to try Fedora or other Fedora (spin, ARM, Cloud..) The main goal is to help the user become a Fedora Project contributor. In the Fedora Project we don't have official mascot. The Design team started to use the Panda because pandas are cute. And because we are a friendly community. If you feel bad looking at a panda, please use http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/ and the Wiki.
A panda then. That's not especially material :J Was there any user testing that confirmed that the panda was likely to have its intended effect? If so, can you point me to the results as I'd be interested to have a look at them. There wasn't anything in my bug report where I said that the panda was not a good choice because it wasn't suited to "deep programmers" (?). In fact I mentioned friendliness, ease of use and capability, as well as encouragement of community involvement, which shares significant similarities with your mentions of students new to computers, the potential for contributors and the friendliness of the community. Given that the mascot elicited a sufficiently negative reaction for a bug report to be filed about it, and that I took the time to articulate the reasons for my response (i.e. not just an "I don't like it" report), I think the details of the issue raised are worthy of specific address and discussion rather than the closing of the bug straight away. Re. your "pandas are cute" statement - maybe. But for what percentage of your visitors looking to download an operating system to replace their existing/familiar OS is the presence of a "cute" mascot going to increase their confidence in the OS being downloaded versus decrease it? Re. "if you feel bad looking at a panda" comment, that comes across as trivialising/mocking. I know what Fedora is about so it won't affect my judgement of the quality of the OS really, and if this was about whether I personally don't like it/want to see it, I'd just adblock it. In fact, I'm trying to contribute to the Fedora project as a whole by filing bug reports, this one included. Your last sentence doesn't fit with the immediately prior "we are a friendly community" statement, and I'd say it's more likely to discourage users from becoming FP contributors.
I think we got your point and we obviously respect your personal opinion about the panda. I also have my personal opinion about the panda and I find it just awesome; we can go on for weeks collecting other opinions without coming to a 100% satisfaction, I think you agrre on this. Fedora means also "friends" and a panda in my opinion is a friendly animal, it doesn't harm anyone and it's really cute. Why should a panda lead to negative reactions? We wanted something pleasant on a "secondary page" and I think we have it: how many times you will see the panda when using our webpages? Do you feel really so bad when downloading an image? If you still want to change something in those pages, why don't you start contributing with a better design or mascot? For sure we don't want to keep those pages white and anonymous, which would lead to any kind of reaction :) Greetings.
I.... what.... but.... You might want to try to get involved with the Fedora website team a bit more before trying to force your tastes on it. You may not realize it, but this is the second bug I've read from you that has resulted in me slapping my forehead and groaning. Bugs like this aren't particularly helpful.
"Given that the mascot elicited a sufficiently negative reaction for a bug report to be filed about it, and that I took the time to articulate the reasons for my response (i.e. not just an "I don't like it" report), I think the details of the issue raised are worthy of specific address and discussion rather than the closing of the bug straight away." Just because you had a problem with something and took five minutes to file a bug doesn't mean your opinion trumps the hours, days, and weeks of effort of the team that put together the website. "In fact, I'm trying to contribute to the Fedora project as a whole by filing bug reports, this one included. Your last sentence doesn't fit with the immediately prior "we are a friendly community" statement, and I'd say it's more likely to discourage users from becoming FP contributors." Do you make friends by walking up to people you don't know and disparaging their taste in clothes?
Robert, I'd advocate a bit of (lightly) structured user testing, not ad-hoc collection of opinion, mine included! Máirín, that applies equally to your suggestion that I'm trying to force my tastes on the Fedora website, which I think is not justified. Of course if my opinion turned out to be an outlier then I'd accept that no problem. If that already happened in relation to the current design, my apologies, and if someone could point me to that I'd be interested in reading the results. I filed a bug here as there is a section for Fedora websites, so it seemed like a good place to do so. Robert, of course there's nothing negative about an illustration cute panda per se, I'd just argue that it's not a good fit for the Fedora website and its target users, and I believe it will contribute to a perception that "Fedora's for kids". Also, every new downloader of Fedora will see it, so in that sense it's one of the primary pages. As an alternative, an initial suggestion I can think of is some images something like the one used on the main page currently that links to http://fedoraproject.org/en/using/life/thomascameron.html since it gives a human touch and also suggests friendliness, without the unfortunate connotations that can be taken from the mascot as currently drawn. Máirín, I didn't file the bug to disparage someone's personal tastes, I did it because I genuinely feel that the mascot is a poor fit for the target audience, although granted I could have couched the initial report a little more gently. In relation to suggesting that I believe my opinion trumps those of other individuals, as you can see, I'm not saying "change it because I said so", I'm saying it's worth discussion instead of dismissing immediately with what seems to be another personal opinion. And I'm certainly not implying in any way that a lot of work didn't go into the website in general, please don't misconstrue what I am saying.
Stephen, I think you're just getting a rise out of us filing bugs like this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1020232 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1020218 "Of course if my opinion turned out to be an outlier then I'd accept that no problem." It is, so please do. This web design has been deployed since 2010 and has actually been user tested. Multiple established members of the Fedora websites team have indicated to you that this is not an issue that concerns us, "Máirín, I didn't file the bug to disparage someone's personal tastes, I did it because I genuinely feel that the mascot is a poor fit for the target audience, although granted I could have couched the initial report a little more gently." If you genuinely thought there was an issue here and wanted to be helpful, you should have reconsidered filing a bug that demonizes a cartoon panda with verbs like "condescended to and infantilised" in a serious bug report. At least you didn't use the word "traumatized." A "little more gently" is an understatement. "I'm not saying "change it because I said so", I'm saying it's worth discussion instead of dismissing immediately with what seems to be another personal opinion." The site's been up close to as-is (aside from some content updates) since 2010 and the design has been publicly discussed and iterated since 2009 - so forgive us if we're not overly concerned here.
No, in fact I use and have used Fedora for several years now, and I filed the bugs because I think they detract from the experience of using Fedora and its related sites, which is unfortunate because I like the OS and its ethos and want to see it do as well as it can. That said, if there isn't any desire to update the site in the near future or take on any user feedback then no problem. Are the user testing results published anywhere? If so if you can point me towards them so I can have a look I'd appreciate it (not to ask you to prove anything but I'd be curious to read it).
No, unfortunately not, we did them at FUDcon Toronto if I recall correctly and I had some notes scribbled on a paper notepad that we built a bucket list of things to correct out of and we went through and corrected them, but I can't seem to find the bucket list wiki page and I never transcribed my copious notes. We're a bit better about documenting that sort of thing these days. I am serious, though, in suggesting that if you'd like to help you should get involved in the team first. Bugs like these aren't helpful because: - Bugzilla is not a discussion forum - We don't even use Bugzilla for the website (you've filed these against Fedora Documentation) - Asethetic and design issues aren't really 'bugs' and take a higher bandwidth discussion (IRC and mockups at a minimum) to really sift through and come to a solution on The appropriate way to engage with concerns like this is to join the websites team.
OK. It's not clear what Fedora Documentation -> fedora-websites is for then, but I guess not for bugs against Fedora websites. I'll look around for info on a better place to raise issues and contribute then and leave this bug alone. Thanks.
You don't need to look around for info because I'm giving it to you: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites
OK, thanks.
(In reply to Stephen from comment #10) > OK. > > It's not clear what Fedora Documentation -> fedora-websites is for then, but > I guess not for bugs against Fedora websites. It's about doc. http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ > I'll look around for info on a better place to raise issues and contribute > then and leave this bug alone. > From the link given by Máirín you'll find the right report website.