Bug 429510 - scim-rawcode should be installed by default
scim-rawcode should be installed by default
Status: CLOSED NEXTRELEASE
Product: Fedora
Classification: Fedora
Component: comps (Show other bugs)
rawhide
All Linux
low Severity low
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Assigned To: Jens Petersen
Fedora Extras Quality Assurance
: i18n
Depends On:
Blocks:
  Show dependency treegraph
 
Reported: 2008-01-21 03:45 EST by Runa Bhattacharjee
Modified: 2008-07-04 02:50 EDT (History)
6 users (show)

See Also:
Fixed In Version:
Doc Type: Bug Fix
Doc Text:
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Clone Of:
Environment:
Last Closed: 2008-07-04 02:50:29 EDT
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Description Runa Bhattacharjee 2008-01-21 03:45:24 EST
Description of problem:

scim-rawcode package, that provides the RAW Unicode input method, is not 
automatically installed when non-english locales are selected during installation.

Version-Release number of selected component (if applicable):


How reproducible:


Steps to Reproduce:
1. Install Fedora rawhide version using Anaconda
2. At the Package Selection=>Languages=>Select any non-english locale that uses
a different script (e.g Bengali Language Support)

  
Actual results:
scim-rawcode package is not installed along with the other scim-* packages used
for language support

Expected results:
scim-rawcode package should be installed, if any language using a script other
than English is being selected for installation.

Additional info:
This package is required to be installed because, often rarely used characters
are not put on the standard keymaps for a language due to resource constraints
and are required  to be input using the RAWCODE.
Comment 1 Jens Petersen 2008-01-23 00:10:56 EST
Would it not be better to put those rarely used characters in
the input maps?  Otherwise I feel some GUI would be better for this.

Normal users should not have to use rawcode, and it is not that
hard to install scim-rawcode if it is needed.  (gtk also supports
input of unicode with Ctrl-Shift-u.)
Comment 2 Runa Bhattacharjee 2008-01-23 00:25:56 EST
Jens, it is not really feasible to put all these characters on the keymap. e.g.
old currency symbols that were used about a century back. These are not used in
the regular writing but is used when documenting about history. Same goes for
the character (U+09FA ishwar). It is used to write the name of a deceased person.
Comment 3 Jens Petersen 2008-02-29 02:58:36 EST
Runa, have you tried Ctrl-Shift-u for gtk apps?
Comment 4 Runa Bhattacharjee 2008-02-29 04:56:41 EST
Yes Jens. The key combination works on gedit. Is there a similar input
combination for QT applications?
Comment 5 Jens Petersen 2008-03-03 21:34:04 EST
I don't know of any way to do it under Qt but then I don't use KDE much.

Can you provide a list of languages that might require direct unicode input or
fixes?

I still wonder if ordinary users would use that though?  it seems to me some
kind of input table would be better for that: either it should be possible to
extend the current maps with some longer input strings (say using pre-edit)
to allow those seldom used characters to be input, or some kind of GUI tool like
scim-input-pad could do it.  Asking normal users to remember and enter Unicode
points directly does not seem right to me.
Comment 6 Runa Bhattacharjee 2008-03-03 23:29:33 EST
Jens,
I do not know of any other languages that might require special characters
through raw unicode input. However, we would like this to be activated for bn-IN
locale in Fedora as we often need to test things out and having the option of
raw unicode input is extremely helpful. Adding Jamil as a cc for this bug, in
case bn locale also needs it. If required we can change the bug summary to
indicate only our language.
Thanks
Comment 7 Jens Petersen 2008-03-03 23:47:37 EST
But how many 

(In reply to comment #6)
> I do not know of any other languages that might require special characters
> through raw unicode input. However, we would like this to be activated for bn-IN
> locale in Fedora as we often need to test things out and having the option of
> raw unicode input is extremely helpful.

It could be done, but how many people would actually be using it?
I don't feel it is right to do it if it is just for a handful. :)

> Adding Jamil as a cc for this bug, in case bn locale also needs it.

bn?
Comment 8 Runa Bhattacharjee 2008-03-04 00:19:07 EST
> > I do not know of any other languages that might require special characters
> > through raw unicode input. However, we would like this to be activated for bn-IN
> > locale in Fedora as we often need to test things out and having the option of
> > raw unicode input is extremely helpful.
> 
> It could be done, but how many people would actually be using it?
> I don't feel it is right to do it if it is just for a handful. :)

Irrespective of numbers, which IMHO is never clear, the larger objective would
be to focus on the fact if there are any hindrances to the usability in the
locale. The option for raw unicode input was always available and its sudden
exclusion would lead to confusion.
> 
> > Adding Jamil as a cc for this bug, in case bn locale also needs it.
> 
> bn?

bn =Bengali.
Comment 9 Jens Petersen 2008-03-04 02:22:27 EST
(In reply to comment #8)
> Irrespective of numbers, which IMHO is never clear, the larger objective would
> be to focus on the fact if there are any hindrances to the usability in the
> locale. 

Hmm, it is a little hard for me to judge.  I imagine many users don't need it.
Maybe you could describe some common use cases, and we can consider them.
IMHO it would be better to fix the UI than just provide rawcode as a bandaid
for that.

> The option for raw unicode input was always available and its sudden
> exclusion would lead to confusion.

Well rawcode was already disabled by default since FC6, so personally
I don't think asking users to install it is so big a problem.
Though I agree it would have been good to install it for people upgrading
from F7 or earlier.  Perhaps we should do an update for F7
to make scim provide "scim-rawcode".

> > > Adding Jamil as a cc for this bug, in case bn locale also needs it.

bn_BD?

Comment 10 Jens Petersen 2008-03-04 02:36:27 EST
Actually thinking more, it seems to me this points to a larger issue that it is
harder to get IMEngines up and running for us than with some other OSes.

In that sense I agree with Runa, that the IMEngines should just be there,
available and ready to be loaded.  I think we need to address this
usability issue: ie how easy it is to add and have a new IMEs up and running
for users.  They shouldn't have to restart their desktop, etc.
But it may take some time before we're ready to install many IMEs
by default (well we already do it in Fedora Live in fact, so this would be a good
chance to fix this).  (It is also mentioned vaguely on
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/SCIM/Wishlist.)

Actually the main original motivation for not installing rawcode by default
anymore was to stop scim from starting when no other IMEs were installed.
Comment 11 Runa Bhattacharjee 2008-03-04 02:49:14 EST
(In reply to comment #9)
> (In reply to comment #8)
> > Irrespective of numbers, which IMHO is never clear, the larger objective would
> > be to focus on the fact if there are any hindrances to the usability in the
> > locale. 
> 
> Hmm, it is a little hard for me to judge.  I imagine many users don't need it.
> Maybe you could describe some common use cases, and we can consider them.
> IMHO it would be better to fix the UI than just provide rawcode as a bandaid
> for that.
> 

Not all users would require it and some would miss the option sorely if its
absent. Fixing a keymap or introducing a new one is always an open option, but
really depends on a greater consensus. However, making available the existing
resources always helps in further enhancements and usability support.



> > The option for raw unicode input was always available and its sudden
> > exclusion would lead to confusion.
> 
> Well rawcode was already disabled by default since FC6, so personally
> I don't think asking users to install it is so big a problem.
> Though I agree it would have been good to install it for people upgrading
> from F7 or earlier.  Perhaps we should do an update for F7
> to make scim provide "scim-rawcode".
> 
> > > > Adding Jamil as a cc for this bug, in case bn locale also needs it.
> 
> bn_BD?
> 
locale is bn_BD, however the language is bn (bn and bn_IN have similar
distinction as  pt and pt_BR)

http://translate.fedoraproject.org/teams/bn
http://translate.fedoraproject.org/teams/bn_IN

 

Comment 12 Runa Bhattacharjee 2008-03-04 02:53:44 EST
(In reply to comment #10)
> Actually thinking more, it seems to me this points to a larger issue that it is
> harder to get IMEngines up and running for us than with some other OSes.
> 
> In that sense I agree with Runa, that the IMEngines should just be there,
> available and ready to be loaded.  I think we need to address this
> usability issue: ie how easy it is to add and have a new IMEs up and running
> for users.  They shouldn't have to restart their desktop, etc.
> But it may take some time before we're ready to install many IMEs
> by default (well we already do it in Fedora Live in fact, so this would be a good
> chance to fix this).  (It is also mentioned vaguely on
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/SCIM/Wishlist.)
> 
> Actually the main original motivation for not installing rawcode by default
> anymore was to stop scim from starting when no other IMEs were installed.

Perhaps, there could be a conditional factor put in, like including this package
only when language support for languages using non-latin locales was selected
during installation. This would ensure another IMEngine to be present and avoid
the  scenario that was the initial motivation to do away with it in the first place.
Comment 13 Jamil Ahmed 2008-03-04 02:59:09 EST
(In reply to comment #11)
> (In reply to comment #9)
> > (In reply to comment #8)
> > > Irrespective of numbers, which IMHO is never clear, the larger objective would
> > > be to focus on the fact if there are any hindrances to the usability in the
> > > locale. 
> > 
> > Hmm, it is a little hard for me to judge.  I imagine many users don't need it.
> > Maybe you could describe some common use cases, and we can consider them.
> > IMHO it would be better to fix the UI than just provide rawcode as a bandaid
> > for that.
> > 
> 
> Not all users would require it and some would miss the option sorely if its
> absent. Fixing a keymap or introducing a new one is always an open option, but
> really depends on a greater consensus. However, making available the existing
> resources always helps in further enhancements and usability support.
> 

Yes, I agree with Runa. It will be better to use the scim-rawcode option without
changing the keyboard layout, always. As some keys are not used widely.

> 
> > > The option for raw unicode input was always available and its sudden
> > > exclusion would lead to confusion.
> > 
> > Well rawcode was already disabled by default since FC6, so personally
> > I don't think asking users to install it is so big a problem.
> > Though I agree it would have been good to install it for people upgrading
> > from F7 or earlier.  Perhaps we should do an update for F7
> > to make scim provide "scim-rawcode".
> > 
> > > > > Adding Jamil as a cc for this bug, in case bn locale also needs it.
> > 
> > bn_BD?
> > 
> locale is bn_BD, however the language is bn (bn and bn_IN have similar
> distinction as  pt and pt_BR)
> 
> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/teams/bn
> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/teams/bn_IN
> 
>  
> 
> 

Comment 14 Bug Zapper 2008-05-14 00:49:12 EDT
Changing version to '9' as part of upcoming Fedora 9 GA.
More information and reason for this action is here:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/HouseKeeping
Comment 15 Jens Petersen 2008-07-04 02:50:29 EDT
scim-rawhide should be installed by default again in f10 -
I just committed such a change to comps-f10.

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