From Bugzilla Helper: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040518 Firefox/0.8 Description of problem: The gaim menu entry is not GNOME HIG compliant. Please change it to contain the program name: Gaim Messaging Client Version-Release number of selected component (if applicable): gaim-0.78-7 How reproducible: Didn't try Steps to Reproduce: Additional info:
you do realize that we aren't a part of the gnome project right?
Actually I thought you were... but in any case I don't see how this is relevant. I was told (on fedora-devel) that any menu entries that are not GNOME HIG compliant should be changed. I totally agree with this, because otherwise the Fedora menus end up being the mess that they currently are. The GNOME HIG seems like the proper guideline for what menu entries should look like. Currently your says Messaging Client. This is not acceptable, because I can have other messaging clients installed. Furthermore it does not present the project name (gaim), which I think is undesirable.
I think the generic name is suggested for "parts of the desktop" but I'd say "messaging client" is kind of geeky (sort of like "X config tool" vs. "Display") - how about "Chat" or "Instant Messaging" or something?
I changed Gaim CVS to use "Gaim Instant Messenger." I'm not sure where Red Hat stands on the issue, but I personally prefer this over the alternatives of -Gaim (previously in upstream CVS) -Instant Messenger (used by the Fedora RPM) -Gaim Messaging Client (suggested above)
I concur with Mark.
yeah, if we aren't going to just say "Gaim" then "Gaim Instant Messanger" is the best alternative.
I like it.
CLOSED->WORKSFORME means the developer could not reproduce the bug. The bug should be open until the change lands in rawhide.
Havoc, is the desktop team okay with "Gaim Instant Messenger"?
Need Seth or Bryan to sign off.
Relevant: Gnome Icons, Gnome/KDE Menus need improvement on fedora-devel
I just updated the HIG to make this section clearer. Note the GenericName only has the applications functionality and the Name has the proper name + application functionality. The HIG is now clear on this and we're waiting for the f.d.o desktop entry spec to catch up. Looks good, I'd be happy with these two for the .desktop file: Name=Gaim Instant Messenger GenericName=Instant Messenger
Sweet. I added the GenericName line to Gaim's gaim.desktop file. Yay for one fewer Fedora Gaim RPM patch being required. Now that this is fixed upstream, I suppose this bug can be closed?
Translations still need to be fixed? Also Red Hat's gaim package needs to begin using upstream .desktop?
Hold on, Sorry! I just asked around and Alan Cox and others agree "Instant Messenger" (tm) seems to be a trademark of AOL, so I believe we would be asked by AOL (again) to not use this name. In light of this, lets go with "IM" instead, it seems to be the best alternative and probably the most recognizable. And in talking with Seth about this (though I'm not in 100% agreement with this solution), Fedora would probably be better off keeping the names generic despite the standard. Here's the issue, and it's a GNOME issue as well: The generic names are easier for users to understand, which is why we want them. The project names (Gaim, Epiphany and Mozilla) really mean nothing to most people. When a user installs a new application that has the same generic name (i.e. install FireFox) we don't want the "Web Browser" menu item changing to now become "Epiphany Web Browser" after you install "FireFox Web Browser". Instead you really want Epiphany to remain "Web Browser" and only the new "FireFox Web Browser" to use the Proper + Generic format. This is because Epiphany is the Desktop web broswer and should only carry the branding of the Desktop, not it's own project name. To do this we really need a way to recognize the GNOME base install items from the 'post install' items and use the generic naming conventions on the post install applications, but not on the GNOME default installed applications. For now however it's best to go with changing the .desktop files to keep the menu items from changing too much and keeping the brand in tact. I'm going to get some dicussion moving on this on usability so we can get some community input as well. So lets finally go with (i know this is against the spec) Name=IM GenericName=IM
"aim" in relation to instant messaging is trademarked as well, gaim already had that come up about 3 years ago. its interesting that at least once a year i hear about aol's trade marks from someone in great britan or from someone who has talked to someone in great britan. is trademark law there so substantially different that not having to change our name here wouldn't hold there? and yes, i know, this thread is specifically talking about "Instant Messanger" not "aim" but the same should hold true of each.
"Hold on, Sorry! I just asked around and Alan Cox and others agree "Instant Messenger" (tm) seems to be a trademark of AOL, so I believe we would be asked by AOL (again) to not use this name." In which case the Kopete Tooltip needs to be changed as well. "The generic names are easier for users to understand, which is why we want them. The project names (Gaim, Epiphany and Mozilla) really mean nothing to most people." Well, I'm not sure that's true. I appreciate being able to tell what application I'm about to launch. You're favoring the new and unexperienced user here, and I don't like that. Futhermore getting new users familiar with the project name means they might be able to recognize the application in other contexts, for example..launch it from the command line. "When a user installs a new application that has the same generic name (i.e. install FireFox) we don't want the "Web Browser" menu item changing to now become "Epiphany Web Browser" after you install "FireFox Web Browser". Instead you really want Epiphany to remain "Web Browser" and only the new "FireFox Web Browser" to use the Proper + Generic format. This is because Epiphany is the Desktop web broswer and should only carry the branding of the Desktop, not it's own project name." I don't use Epiphany, and I don't like the idea of designating it as THE WEB BROWSER, firefox being a second-class citizen here. I'd rather have consistency in the naming scheme than anything more complicated. "To do this we really need a way to recognize the GNOME base install items from the 'post install' items and use the generic naming conventions on the post install applications, but not on the GNOME default installed applications." I don't care what the GNOME base install items are. I am completely uninterested as to which apps are part of gnome and which ones are not. Therefore any efforts to identify one from the other are misguided IMHO. "Name=IM GenericName=IM" That's a 2 letter abbreviation... it's not a name of any kind. Makes no sense to me. I see your AOL point, but I disagree with the rest. The fact that it's agains the spec is not a good thing either. How about: Name = Gaim Messenger GenericName = ...whatever...
Can we keep the meta-discussion on the fedora-desktop-list thread rather than the specific bug about Gaim? i.e. let's come back to this bug when we know what the overall guidelines are. Bryan: from the list thread, I thought we wanted something like this upstream: Name=Gaim Chat GenericName=Chat Which we'd then munge in our spec file to: Name=Chat GenericName=Chat (just saying "Chat", maybe it's "IM") Anyhow, let's go back to the mailing list for the general point, and just come back here for IM-specific aspects.
It's too bad Instant Messenger is trademarked, it's such a good description :-) List of Possibilities: Gaim Internet Messenger (my personal favorite) Gaim IM (my second choice) Gaim Internet Chat Gaim Chat and Messaging Gaim Messaging and Chat
What we'd like to see in the upstream is: Name=Gaim IM GenericName=IM However what we're going to want for Fedora is: Name=IM GenericName=IM IM is short and understood, even AOL uses it however they don't seem to have the trademark on it. Internet Messenger is close, but Instant Messenger is the recognized name and with the slight difference we'll just be confusing. Since the Name/GenericName handling code isn't quite doing what we want we'll have to wait until is does the names right before we can use the upstream version. I explained this GenericName thing a little bit more in bug 125848
All localized Name and GenericName entries have been replaced with one generic Name=IM and GenericName=IM.