Bug 1500806 - move FF57 out of my sight from updates-testing
Summary: move FF57 out of my sight from updates-testing
Keywords:
Status: CLOSED WONTFIX
Alias: None
Product: Fedora
Classification: Fedora
Component: firefox
Version: 26
Hardware: Unspecified
OS: Unspecified
unspecified
urgent
Target Milestone: ---
Assignee: Martin Stransky
QA Contact: Fedora Extras Quality Assurance
URL:
Whiteboard:
Depends On:
Blocks:
TreeView+ depends on / blocked
 
Reported: 2017-10-11 14:11 UTC by Harald Reindl
Modified: 2017-10-20 09:49 UTC (History)
13 users (show)

Fixed In Version:
Doc Type: If docs needed, set a value
Doc Text:
Clone Of:
Environment:
Last Closed: 2017-10-12 08:25:55 UTC
Type: Bug
Embargoed:


Attachments (Terms of Use)

Description Harald Reindl 2017-10-11 14:11:05 UTC
no, you don't understand how updates-testing works

if more mantainers act like you people like me having updates-testing enabled for a decade need to stop doing so - cool that when i forget --exlcude=firefox i sit here on my daily work machine (and my day job is web-developer) with a browser missing most extensions while they are expected to be mostly ready at FF57 release

and the same for everybody else out there

UNPUSH THAT PACKAGE NOW AND DON'T PUSH STUFF TO ANY FEDORA REPO WHICH IS NOT MEANT TO BE GENERAL USEABLE UNANOUNCED

________________________

It's going to be stable in one month. Fx 57 release date is 2017-11-14

I expect the testing repo is used by experienced users who wish to test software planned for Fedora thus I don't see any problem here.

Comment 1 Harald Reindl 2017-10-11 14:12:13 UTC
and yes i am taliking about Fedora 26 which currently offers FF57 in updates-testing - ply your games with F27 or Rawhide

Comment 2 Martin Stransky 2017-10-11 14:14:19 UTC
I'll do that if you prove that it breaks any Fedora rule. I'm not going to do so because of your personal opinion.

Comment 3 Harald Reindl 2017-10-11 14:17:55 UTC
what about common-sense when everybody knows that for FF57 most extensions are not ready at the moment?

you can see that easily below "Extras -> Addons"
from 11 extensions *3* are ready for FF57

if you really think you help any user with your blind acting i can#t help you but you can be sure that no single user will be graceful for this early update!

Comment 4 Harald Reindl 2017-10-11 14:23:05 UTC
or go out and make sure within an hour all extensions at mozilla.org become magically compatible - acting and argue like you are doing at the devel-list will force users to disable updates-testing - and you think that helps Fedora in general?

Comment 5 Martin Stransky 2017-10-11 14:29:39 UTC
(In reply to Harald Reindl from comment #3)
> what about common-sense when everybody knows that for FF57 most extensions
> are not ready at the moment?
>
> you can see that easily below "Extras -> Addons"
> from 11 extensions *3* are ready for FF57

I'm afraid all extensions which are going to be ported to FF57 are already done. IMHO your expectation that majority of the extensions are going to be updated just before Firefox 57 is false.
 
> if you really think you help any user with your blind acting i can#t help
> you but you can be sure that no single user will be graceful for this early
> update!

Let's wait for some general feedback here. I see four people complaining about it so far which I would not call "majority".

Comment 6 Harald Reindl 2017-10-11 14:35:50 UTC
and i *know for sure* that as one example for "NoScript" a update is worked on

"I see four people complaining" - yeah because most updates-testing users likely did even not get offered it as i did only on one out of 3 machines until now

the point is that you seem not to understand "updates-testing" at all

* it is supposed for packages which are meant for stable updates
* it is supposed that these packages receive karama
* the current FF57 package in that form is not planned
  to make it *ever* to stable updates - never ever - because
  at FF57 release day there is a final release with different sources

Comment 7 Gerald Cox 2017-10-11 15:06:49 UTC
(In reply to Harald Reindl from comment #6)

> the point is that you seem not to understand "updates-testing" at all
> 
> * it is supposed for packages which are meant for stable updates
> * it is supposed that these packages receive karama
> * the current FF57 package in that form is not planned
>   to make it *ever* to stable updates - never ever - because
>   at FF57 release day there is a final release with different sources

Harald, I often find myself in agreement with you... but in this instance I do not.  

The problem here is that Fx 57 is BETA; it is not intended to be pushed to stable.  Even the comments admit that.  Therefore, it should not be put into updates-testing.  It belongs in RAWHIDE.  If people want to install it from RAWHIDE that is very simple to do.  Just download it from koji.  

The intent by Martin was a good one, but he should have never pushed it to updates-testing.

Comment 8 Gerald Cox 2017-10-11 15:09:14 UTC
(In reply to Martin Stransky from comment #2)
> I'll do that if you prove that it breaks any Fedora rule. I'm not going to
> do so because of your personal opinion.

It breaks a fedora rule.  I responded to you in the devel list.  It's from the document you referenced:

"The updates-testing repository, also referred to as Test Updates, contains updates scheduled to be released for Branched pre-releases (after the Bodhi enabling point) and stable releases of Fedora. User testing and feedback provided via Bodhi, on the test mailing list and the relevant Bugzilla is vital to ensure that good updates are released quickly and bad ones kept away from release."

By definition BETA software is never intended to be pushed to stable.  Fx 57 is BETA.  When the STABLE version is released, then it can go into updates-testing.  Not before.  Again, that is the purpose of RAWHIDE.

You have a good intent, but you should have never pushed this to updates-testing.

Comment 9 Josh Stone 2017-10-11 16:44:29 UTC
(In reply to Martin Stransky from comment #5)
> I'm afraid all extensions which are going to be ported to FF57 are already
> done. IMHO your expectation that majority of the extensions are going to be
> updated just before Firefox 57 is false.

For one, LastPass has promised that they will be ready, but they're not yet.

Comment 10 Gerald Cox 2017-10-11 16:49:50 UTC
(In reply to Gerald Cox from comment #7)
> (In reply to Harald Reindl from comment #6)
> 
> > the point is that you seem not to understand "updates-testing" at all
> > 
> > * it is supposed for packages which are meant for stable updates
> > * it is supposed that these packages receive karama
> > * the current FF57 package in that form is not planned
> >   to make it *ever* to stable updates - never ever - because
> >   at FF57 release day there is a final release with different sources
> 
> Harald, I often find myself in agreement with you... but in this instance I
> do not.  
> 
> The problem here is that Fx 57 is BETA; it is not intended to be pushed to
> stable.  Even the comments admit that.  Therefore, it should not be put into
> updates-testing.  It belongs in RAWHIDE.  If people want to install it from
> RAWHIDE that is very simple to do.  Just download it from koji.  
> 
> The intent by Martin was a good one, but he should have never pushed it to
> updates-testing.

Harald, actually in all the crosstalk from the mailing list I misunderstood what you were saying - once again in complete agreement.  Sorry!

Comment 11 Harald Reindl 2017-10-11 16:52:57 UTC
> but they're not yet

and there is probably a lot of *which are ready* but other than Fedora which blows out things despite they are ready or not use the remaining time to optimize und bugfixing

no single extension developer sane in his mind will blow out a complete rewrite of extensions without a good reason and there is none at the moment and risk breaking things for users of current F%56

but i fear many Fedora maintainers and decisions makers will never understand proper software development - *not* first - done right one time and don't abuse your users as testing monkeys

Comment 12 Harald Reindl 2017-10-12 07:09:57 UTC
it's still in updates-testing

and to the BULLSHIT you wrote on the mailing.list below - sure, we can add firefofox to excludes manually on our machines to not have from now on type --exclude=freifox in each and every session - but don't expect us to remember in a month na d put that out which means you fool lose the teststers for your package ENTIRELY because you have not deserved them at all
__________________________________________

I believed that the update-testing repository is intended for testing and it's used by power users who can handle that, exclude the package from testing if needed, downgrade broken package and so on.

I'm surprised that people
I believed that the update-testing repository is intended for testing and it's used by power users who can handle that, exclude the package from testing if needed, downgrade broken package and so on.

I'm surprised that people use updates-testing for stable/production machines, have problem with handling the update and act like newbies. If you can't handle that, don't use that. Fedora is really a bleeding edge so don't complain you get new software with new features - even as testing only  use updates-testing for stable/production machines, have problem with handling the update and act like newbies. If you can't handle that, don't use that. Fedora is really a bleeding edge so don't complain you get new software with new features - even as testing only

Comment 13 Martin Stransky 2017-10-12 07:24:53 UTC
Sorry but the update stays there unless there's a general agreement it should be removed. If you feel so please file FESCo ticket for that.

Comment 14 Harald Reindl 2017-10-12 07:34:17 UTC
wow - what a asshole attitude - who do you think you are?

Comment 15 Felix Schwarz 2017-10-12 08:08:37 UTC
(In reply to Harald Reindl from comment #14)
> wow - what a asshole attitude - who do you think you are?

Maybe we all should take a deep breath so things can calm down?
Harald, why not filing a FESCo ticket?

Personally I was surprised as well to see Firefox 57 beta in F26 (stable distribution, beta version of a major Firefox update). I was already prepared to loose a few add-ons so I can now enjoy more "quantum" features but still this update does not match my understanding of Fedora's update policies.

Anyway I think it is clear that this ticket does not lead anywhere so Harald/Gerald/anyone else: If you are unhappy, let's have a FESCo ticket.

Comment 16 Martin Stransky 2017-10-12 08:20:08 UTC
I agree I should post the heads up to devel list - it's there now:

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/5PZSL2GSJ4MJCTNY2QTJVWPAO4HNL7OA/

Comment 17 Harald Reindl 2017-10-12 08:23:25 UTC
yeag and  *after* the heads up *wait* for reactions which would have shown you that updates-testing is the *wrong* place - you did and still do anything wrong what a package maintainer can do wrong and that is really sad to see because you also refuse use common sense with your "ask FeSCO" top stop me attitude

Comment 18 Martin Stransky 2017-10-12 08:25:55 UTC
Let's close it as it leads nowhere. Please file the FESCo ticket.

Comment 19 Felix Schwarz 2017-10-12 20:15:04 UTC
Two FESCo tickets have been filed:
-  use of updates-testing for testing of non-update software: https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1782
- Firefox 57 and the Updates Policy https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1783

Comment 20 Harald Reindl 2017-10-20 09:49:56 UTC
when policies are needed to replace lost common sense....

https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1782

jforbes
5 hours ago

I think the following should be added to the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy page.

Bodhi use:
Bodhi is meant as the method for getting updates into an existing release or pre-release. It does provide a testing mechanism to make sure that nothing unforeseen will arise, but the expectation is that packages submitted are likely ready to ship as an update. As such, any packages submitted to bodhi must be done with the intent that the package submitted is ready for general consumption. The users kind enough to test these packages have come to expect this, and doing anything else moves against their good will, and is likely to drive testers away. Bodhi and updates-testing are not a place for experimentation or advanced notification of potentially disruptive updates. These should be handled with packages in copr or another public repository with a message to call for testing on the appropriate mailing lists.


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